Overview: This October 6, 1996, part 2 interview is with Don DeYoung, a professor at a small Christian college in Indiana, Grace College. He has been there for 25 years. His area of expertise is physics, math and astronomy and has mainly had a teaching career. He does a little research on the side as time permits. And he has written several easy to understand books on Creation and Science to answer many questions he receives. He has a wife, Sally, and three daughters. In his words, "We're just a Christian family living in a small town environment. And that's my career, working with college students."

Ron: Why can the Bible be trusted scientifically?

Don: Well, to me the Bible is a very special book, like no other. Of course, it's handed down from the Creator. It's written by the hands of men. And that's a tough one to answer, Ron. All I can say is that for my personal view, the Bible is a special book like that, without any error. And that's my presupposition, that's my beginning point. Just as for an evolutionist, maybe their presupposition is that there is no truth; there is no good book; or there is no beginning or whatever. We all have these starting points, and that's mine. And as I've gone through life I have found that it is a consistent view. It has not let me down. I've tried to keep an eye on what's coming out as people test the Bible with prophecy or areas of science or whatever and it just proves itself over and over again. It is a very special book. And, of course, most of all, it helps to change lives.

Where else do you get this material and how else do you get familiar with it?

Ron: As an individual, you're a limited resource. How do you schedule your appearances and how big is your class load at college?

Don: I teach full time at Grace College. That's 4 or 5 courses. In fact, that's kind of a heavy load; the kind of thing we do in a small Christian college. So that keeps me tied down pretty much 9 months of the year. Maybe I get out one weekend a month to attend an out-of-town seminar like this one in Dayton or whatever. I don't have an agent. If someone calls and wants a seminar, I try to work with them. I've been doing this a few years now and word kind of gets around. It's interesting. I'll return to some groups or someone else has heard about what I do. Of course, there are a number of creationists out there speaking and doing a similar thing. Just in the last two years, I've tied in more closely with the Institute for Creation Research. They do Back to Genesis seminars and Case for Creation. They have different names for them. More and more, I'm letting them do the footwork on this. They have a lot of interesting ideas for a local church and how to promote the idea; what kind of books to bring in and how to schedule the weekend. I think as the 90s go by, I'm going to work through ICR and let them administer and make assignments to me as to where I can go. I do spend my summer times out in San Diego teaching in their graduate school. I have a growing contact with them. When you have a group like this, there's enough resources that you can perhaps sponsor a seminar once a year,...and really... help to get the word out.

Ron: This whole creation/evolution debate has been called a controversy. There's even a public television program on the creation/evolution controversy [PBS 1996]. I don't know if you saw that, but I'm sure you have a viewpoint about what you would call that controversy if it exists. What do you think the effect of that controversy is for the church or the public? The science establishment would like to shut us down and we would like to get the word out on the excitement of creation.

Don: Yes, I saw that television special, and definitely it is a controversy. And there are strong feelings on both sides. The science establishment would like to shut us down and we would like to get the word out on the excitement of creation. It's different views of life, and there are a lot of implications there. If you're going to be consistent with this whole evolutionary view, then things happen. Like mankind is not anything special at all. We are mere animals. There's no special dignity that we have. I don't know, maybe there are implications from that of the kind of society we have today. You know, maybe that secular view is sort of a mind set that is running down our society. A consistent evolutionary view where everything begins spontaneously, would rule out any special laws like the Ten Commandments. There are no higher moral laws if it was all a spontaneous beginning. And so, that starts to rip pages out of the Bible when you do that; and I think that's why creationists are speaking up and saying let's be careful here. There's an alternative to this secular view which is so depressing and has all of these false implications. And so, the controversy is a deep one. Of course, we have to keep reminding ourselves, Ron, that it's a spiritual battle, and it's going to continue until the Lord comes back. It's fun to be in the battle and to be on the Lord's side. ...maybe that secular view is sort of a mind set that is running down our society.

Ron: That sounds to me that you might have implied that evolution is a religion. Would you say that's true and why?

Don: Well, a religion. Yes, I expect that it would meet the definition, at least as I would think about it in my mind. A religion, I suppose, has some kind of documents that are important to them. Creation has the scripture; evolution, well, what do they have? Charles Darwin's writings and Jay Gould and others over time. A religion would have some founders or important people whether it's a cult or whatever. In evolution again, I guess it would be Charles Darwin and Carl Sagan, almost like the prophets, the leaders of the movement. A religion has headquarters. In evolution, that would be universities, I guess. It has its own journals and meetings. Well, let's face it. A religion gets into the realm of faith. There's a belief involved there. In ours it's a belief in a Creator; on the other side, there's a belief in chance and that time is a miracle worker. Yea, the more I look at it, it is a religion, both Creation and evolution. You can't prove either one [scientifically]; there is faith involved with either one; and it does seem to me that because of that either both should be taught or neither.

Ron: Is it really right to teach a design or a Designer in public school? Do the facts look more like things happened randomly or does it look like there is a design in everything we see?

Don: In a public school setting or university classroom, I know you must be careful just because of the powers that are in authority around us. So I guess you do what you can. You can mention that there's incredible design around us that just couldn't come to be; and mention that as far as we know, biological change is limited. We know that there is small scale, but macroscopic [big] biological changes are just not in evidence in the fossil record. We can open up the question of this whole time scale of things, whether we are certain of these billions of years everyone talks about. I think it's healthy to bring out these areas and just sort of ask the question: Are we sure science knows what it's talking about? As far as that can be pushed in the public school setting, I think that it should be. But again, I feel for these teachers who are in sensitive places. They do what they can. Maybe outside of class or in a private meeting or whatever, then you can perhaps fill in the details. Kids do like to know about the Creation story and where it's coming from. That's where the books and the creation tools and the scripture come into play. There's an alternative to this secular view which is so depressing and has all of these false implications.

Ron: What's the funniest or the most interesting story about evolution or creation that you know?

Don: Well now, if we're in the biology world, it might be that the idea that land animals, like cattle, turn into whales. And then, maybe they're not happy there, and they'll come back out of the water again. There are so many interesting stories like that in the biological realm. Let me just stick with physics, which is my area. And it's not funny, but it shows the extremes to which you go in physics. We are noticing more and more the exact design and plan of everything in nature. Even small details like the mass of a proton or of a neutron appears to be carefully chosen for the stability of the universe. As well as the law of gravity, as we find out that gravity decreases exactly as the square of distance. What I'm talking about here are these design ideas: Why does gravity change exactly as the square? Why is the mass of a proton just exactly so? There are scores of these design evidences. And so, what the other side has done to explain this is, they've concluded that, yes, this universe that we live in appears to be very special. So it must be that there are lots of other universes. There's another one where the mass of the proton is different. And there's yet another universe where gravity is different. They talk about an infinite number of universes and we just happen to live in the one where everything comes out just right. Well, that, of course, is wishful thinking in the extreme. There is no way to see if there are other parallel universes. By definition, the universe is everything there is and it is the one we live in. It just shows the extremes you run into to avoid the design argument. So you say it is not design, there is all kinds of universes, with no shred of evidence for it.

Ron: I want to thank you for giving this interview and give you a final opportunity if there's something I've left out that you'd like our readers to know about. Maybe a promotion for your school or your books or maybe a caution about what they should be teaching their own kids?

Don: I appreciate that, Ron. If any of your readers are wondering about college for their friends or kids, there are not too many Christian colleges left that stand by creation. And it's important. As we were saying, it affects about every course you take. At Grace College in Winona Lake, we still have a strong creation stand. I know there are some other schools around, but there seems to be a dwindling number. If anyone is interested, have them call or write me, and I'd be glad to tell them more about our school. Again, I wish your group success. This is great! Anything we can do to teach each other science, good science, the way the Lord has set it up, will enrich our lives. The more that we enjoy the sun, moon, and stars or the leaves or whatever else, just helps us to enjoy life, and I think the Lord wants it to be that way.

Ron: Thank you very much Don.